Oh trust me there is no ego in being an atheist. Recent survey says we are the most untrusted bunch on the planet! Right below rapists and above murderers. I lost friends and family after coming out of the closet. I don't go waving an atheist flag wherever I go, only those who are close to me and accepts who I am knows I'm an atheist. So there is no ego what so ever. And I am open minded to learn from the religious as long as it makes sense and they are not trying to convert me.
Man, those people who came up with that ranking need a boot up their asses. But I see what you mean, when people confront you and push you to convert, that shit would get to me too, so I feel you. It's just I've been lurking /r/atheism on reddit, and there's a lot of stupid shit posted by atheists that has the same weight of stupidity as religious fanatics. And I'm sorry you lost friends and family, they still don't have compassion in accepting someone's point of view.
Dan - this pic made me think of your moral argument that our current morals are traced back to religion. And modern religion got it from olde time religion, who got it from early Christianity, who got it from Judaism, who got it from earlier pagan religions, who got it from still earlier mystic religions and family gods. But all of that came from evolutionarily derived behaviors, that came from our mammalian primate background. We don't just share DNA with chimps, we act like them too. hahaha
Weird, I thought I posted a reply... Oh well time to rewrite So I was talking to a few religious people who are very open-minded, and they pointed out the same thing you did: morality and law are evolutionarily derived from something. So in the case of law, though it did derive from a religious root, the law we have today, and the set of morals we have today, is a product of human influence that is non-religious. Though the root is religion, what we have today is thanks to human critical thinking, not religion. So having said that, to reply to that image, obviously there are some concepts that are just illogical, i.e. eating pork, shellfish, homosexuality, the condoning of slavery, rape, etc etc... But at the same time, there are still passages that are good. For example, there are many passages that talk about family life, generosity, humility and wisdom. What I mean is that the Bible is a product written 2000 years ago. Religious literature should follow an evolutionary derivation (as you said). Doctrines should be iterated to filter bad passages, and keep good passages. Yes, the Bible contains some fucked up shit, but that should not shun you from using it altogether. Good passages should not be overshadowed by the stupid shit in the Bible. This goes with any and all other religious literature. Being open-minded means that you are able to derive good teachings from everywhere, regardless of where it originates. The reason I haven't let go of my own religion is because I find Buddhism as a guide on life, and it gives me a set of values to follow. However, I don't blindly follow all the passages of Buddhism, because there are some fucked up shit in there too. I choose what I want to believe in, and what teachings to follow. According to some articles I've read, the reason why many atheists are atheists is because they haven't found a belief that they can associate themselves with. For example, you cannot associate yourself with Christianity, due to your own reasons. I will be honest, I wouldn't be able to associate myself with everything in Buddhism, however I create my own set of values based on the culmination of good values from every religion. I create myself my own set of values, which is why I still hold on to religion. I hope this sheds some light as to why some of us haven't turned atheistic. Again, I don't speak for all religious people. Many religious people are just fucking stupid and idiotic.
I like your reply, very well put! And I'm happy to see that you are seeking info from other sources. The image is to point out the flaws in the bible. As much as I hate to admit, there are good stuff in the bible that teaches us good morals. Matter in fact, I still use it to teach my kids (that's how I was brought up). My point is most xtians swear by the book and says everything in the book is god's word and they must follow it. That is fine and dandy, IF they really follow it. But NO, most pick and choose what they like to hear and fit their lifestyle and preaches like they know the bible. When you point out the bat shit crazy shit they tell you that it doesn't apply in current time. But then when you point out to them that they just admitted that the bible is god's word, so why wouldn't it apply? They get all offended. If god knows all, he surely would've know 2000 years later people wouldn't believe the things in the bible. He would've put out literature that would apply to all, weather it's 1000 years or 10,000 years later. it should still work in any society at any time frame. This is why I have more respect for the muslims. At least they follow the Quran to the T! We may call them crazy but those folks are truly dedicated to their god. LOL
Yes, perhaps, but to be honest, whether it be Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheist, Agnostic or whatever <insert group here>, there is always one constant that all of these groups share: the human factor. And by that constant alone, there will always be conflicts. You see, what I mean is that one of humanity's favourite characteristic is that we as human beings HATE being wrong. We just HATE being wrong, even when we know we're wrong. We ALWAYS want to show that we're right and people are wrong. That's the nature of being human, and no one is an exception. And for that fact alone, we will always have fanatics, whether it be in religion, politics, sports, or any topic that can be debated. The only way we can escape from that human nature is by shedding oneself from pride, ego and grow compassion. Unfortunately, I can tell you for a fact that no one on this Earth has achieved that, not even the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama, though he may be the human who's most at peace compared to everyone else, still expresses this human characteristics when it comes to politics between Tibet and China. So because I accept the fact that this human flaw will never be 100% irradiated, I understand why Christian fanatics and religious fanatics act the way they do. This means that I don't have to waste my effort and energy in arguing with them, and this makes me happier. This also happens to be one of the Dalai Lama's primary teachings, which is why he is so at peace with himself and happy overall, despite the shit that goes on in the world. I would rather not waste my efforts changing or arguing something I know I cannot change, as it makes my life happier. And this is the way of life that Buddhism teaches. If I believe I can make a difference, then I'll attempt at changing it. Otherwise, it wont matter to me. You previously asked what good things religion does that atheism can't do, well I'll reply it with a different response. There's nothing that religion does that's better than atheism. The one thing that religion does do that's better than atheism is the fact that it makes the religious individual feel good. Put aside Christian goals, put aside Muslim goals, put aside religious agendas, religious people (even fanatics) feel good about themselves, regardless of what others think. They feel good, and that's all that matters to them. People are self-centered, so in the perspective of the self and regardless of what others think, their happiness is all that matters to them. And for that reason, though I disagree with their agenda, the fact that they feel good doing it will always empower them to continue. So that's why I gave up trying to argue with them, because there's no point in persuading them, when you can't.
Your quote "The one thing that religion does do that's better than atheism is the fact that it makes the religious individual feel good." again I have to disagree with you. You are implying that Atheists don't feel good when we do good or we don't feel as good as religious people do. I feel great when I do good, knowing it is me doing it out of my heart and not because of me trying to impress a deity so I can go to heaven or as they say doing it for Jesus, because that's what he want u to do.
And when we do good, it's partly out of compassion, the word you keep preaching and saying that no one has fully understand it. We may not fully understand it, but doesn't mean we're not trying and there are plenty of people with compassion in the world religious or not. It's how they use that compassion that is in question.
No that's not what I mean. I mean that for a religious individual, following a religion makes them feel good. I never said that atheists don't feel good, because I know that there are things that make atheists feel good. For example, Bill Gates feels good from donating to charity, yet he's an Atheist. What I mean by what I said is that the act of following a religion makes the religious individual feel good. And to address the second part of your quote, you're implying that religious people do good deeds in order to impress a deity so they can go to heaven, or do it for Jesus because that's what he wants you to do. To some, that may be true. But you're generalizing the entire religious population. Many religious people do good deeds because it makes them feel good (just like you). I know many religious people who do things not to impress a deity, go to heaven or do it for Jesus. So in regards to that, I don't think that generalization that you made fully justifies an entire religious population. I am religious, but I don't do good deeds for a deity, I don't do good deeds to go to nirvana or to reach enlightenment, I don't have a deity who I want to impress. You'd be surprised how many religious people don't put an emphasis on preaching a deity. I do good deeds because I want humanity to be better, I want to help humanity, and that makes me feel good. And I'm not the only one. It's really sad that religion is misrepresented by a large group of fanatics, which dictates and creates false generalization about something. By the way, this is also a human flaw, the need to generalize things. If I made it seem like I was generalizing the atheist population, I apologize. I am, after all, human. Correct. And I agree with you. But the difference I want to make is this: 1) ego/pride and compassion are contrasting elements. The more ego/pride you have, the less compassionate you are, and vice versa. Ego and pride prevents one to be open-minded, and thus, compassionate. Furthermore, no one has zero ego/pride. The human being consists of a balance between ego/pride and compassion, and some just have more compassion than others; but never 100% compassion. 2) I fully agree with the statement "there are plenty of people with compassion in the world religious or not. It's how they use that compassion that is in question". However I also want to add: how they GAIN compassion is also the question. Some gain compassion through religion, others, like you, gain compassion through non-religious means. The key point here is that compassion can come from everywhere. As long as one lowers their ego, they then become more open-minded and have a higher tolerance of things that would typically irritate them; their compassion grows. So whether it comes from religion or non-religious means does not matter. Atheists can gain compassion just as well as religious people. So just because people follow a religion does not mean that they follow a path of ignorance. Some religious people are ignorant, of course, but don't let those people make you judge that all religious people are ignorant. Though I am religious, I still praise many Atheists for their compassion (like Bill Gates and Einstein). I don't see why many atheists don't return the favour, and continue to assume that all religious people do things to impress a deity, when, for some of us, that is simply not true.
To add, the mere fact that people are taking sides (religion or atheism) already shows that the level of open-mindedness is not as open as one may think. I'm trying to bridge the gap between religion and atheism, by embracing good teachings from all sides. I do that by lowering my ego and pride of Buddhism, and accept teachings from other religions and atheism. The fact that people are still bent on remaining loyal to their religion, or remaining loyal to atheism while not willing to listen to the other side, fully displays that people are still closed-minded. During the Crusades, it was Christianity vs Islam. Now a new Crusade is happening, and it's Religion vs Atheism. I don't want this to happen. I want people to open their eyes and see that people can learn from one another. The only way to do that is by lowering one's ego and pride. Each side will always pull the argument: "But it's because of the other side that's doing this or that". Compassion means you're the first one to drop the need for excuses, and embrace the other side. That's what Buddha teaches, that's what Jesus teaches, that's what Alah teaches, and hell, that's what Einstein even teaches. So again, the problem is not Religion or Atheism. It's humanity. It's us, it's you and it's me.
you also have to understand being atheist, we get dumped on all the time. Once a religious person finds out, the first thing out of their mouth is "oh u are going to hell, aren't you scared? Basically condemning us to hell with a blink of an eye. Then the nice ones would try to convert you and tell you that you are wrong. The not so nice ones would just ignore you and stop being your friend. So with that said, that's why we feel like we are always on the defense. It sucks that I generalize it, but frankly, that's how we feel, like the whole world is against us. I know for a fact that there are good religious people......as long as they don't know I'm atheist.
And that's why the world is fucked up. Though I am sorry you went through the stuff you went through. I read many topics on Reddit where people had the same experience as you (either they stop all communications or try and convert) and it disgusts me when I read them. The world is a fucked up world because of shit like that. And if I were in your shoes, I would not react any differently. I just want to tell you that there are people out there that are not like that at all. There are people out there who respect their peers, regardless of their religious background or non-religious background, and strive to better themselves by learning from all parties. I'm just trying to help you understand why those people act the way they do (they lack open-mindedness, lack compassion, have too high an ego and pride). I'm also just trying to share with you how I cope with people like that: I try and understand them, which raises my tolerance of them. That allows me to realize that it's the way humanity is, and that they cannot be changed. And for this by not confronting them (putting up a defense or fight back against them), I put my energy into something more productive that makes me feel happier in life. And as for those people, they don't deserve to have you as a friend if they place friendship as a lower priority. That's also against moral teachings. In the end, humanity is a fucked up race, in all parties involved. The best one can do is to drop their ego/pride of religion or atheism, understand why people act the way they do, and be compassionate to all (even your own enemies). Unfortunately, 99% of the world's population don't understand this concept, which is why the world is messed up. edit: also, a lack of education plays a huge part as to why people act like that.
Dan, I like to consider myself very open minded, and I thank you for trying to understand my point of view. Your insight and wisdom is above par compared to other religious folks. I can respect that. I also hope I have represented my atheism in a positive way. And hope those who are reading this thread can relate or understand that not all atheist are heathens! If you look back in this thread and many other threads that you and I have participated in, I'm pretty mellow and try to respect all posters. I don't cuss at them or attack them (unless they attack 1st) but I still keep my composure and try to reason with them. I try to change the general atheist image that we are always mad and have no morals. Thats not how we are. I too want a better world and try to do my little part to better humanity.
That's good to hear. While representing Atheism, if you do find concepts in religious literature that you think may fit your set of values and principles, don't be afraid to use it to your advantage, regardless of the fact that it is "religious". Taking advantage of religious teachings does not make you religious, rather it would be the true definition of open-mind, while still remaining atheist. I have done the same in regards to atheist teachings. note: Though I need to disclaim, I do not, by any means, represent the religious population lol. I was playing the devil's advocate, because I wanted to show that we as a human being do not need to be locked down to one side of an argument. I wanted to show that though both side have their negativity, both sides also have positives, and in order to better ourselves, we need to capitalize on the positives from both sides, and not restrict our mind to one side only. Compared to other religious people, I am very much agnostic. However I like to think that I am able to understand the positive benefits from both religion and atheism. edit: on a side note, Atheism is defined as the belief that God does not exist. Agnostic is defined by the belief that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God. What is it called when there is the belief in spirituality that exists, and that it is indifferent to the interpretation of different religions (all religions refer to the same thing, but are interpreted differently)?
I came across this essay, and it points out exactly how we as human being can cultivate our minds, better ourselves. I want to point out one thing to Theists, Atheists and Agnostics: Religion should not be interpreted the way we are interpreting it. The existence of God is unimportant and irrelevant. It's truly a shame people put more importance on revering a God or proving/disproving god, when that activity is counterproductive and useless. I said it: Religion is not about God. It's about you, the human being. In the following essay, there is one excerpt that caught my eye: src: http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/Bhante_Dhammananda_Human_Dignity_in_Buddhism.pdf Are there any mention of God in it? No. So why are people trying to revere God instead of bettering themselves? And why are people insistent on disproving God? And as for Atheists and Agnostics: You say that you can learn morality without the need for religion. Without a basis from which you can search for the understanding of morality, how do you learn morality? Morality is not something that can be discovered through science. Your morality would be at best equivalent to the level of morality of your society, because your society dictates your morality. All religions have something in common: They have outlined and share the same teachings of morality. The reason why literature like the Bible contains acceptance of rape, murder and frowns homosexuality etc is because the Bible was written by human beings, flawed humanity. However, the bible does contain many passages that preaches morality. So to speak scientifically, why not leverage on existing research? At this moment, I'm truly ashamed to be called a human being. The nature of humanity overshadows all of the good that can occur in the world. Theists who are more concerned with turning their religion into a cult, rather than utilize it properly (as human nature is to argue that we are right, they are wrong). This causes Atheists to be defensive, as Atheism is falsely considered as satanic. Atheists see themselves as victims of Theists, and thus label Theists as the "bad guy". This is understandable considering their circumstances, however, in being defensive, they block their willingness to learn about what religion truly has to offer. It is not God, Salvation, or entrance to Heaven that matters. All that is irrelevant. Religion offers existing research data on how one can shed oneself of greed, lust, anger, hatred, jealousy, envy and negative attributes. The proof that both Theists and Atheists are at fault is this: Theists, in attempting to convert Atheists, demonstrate greed, hunger for power, hatred of anyone who don't share their beliefs. Atheists, due to the offensive activities of the Theists, demonstrate anger, hatred, despise, hatred of those who have attacked them (Theists). Both sides demonstrate negative human emotions, which is completely against what any religion stands for. The reason why religion is shined in a dark light is because humanity demonstrated religion in a dark light. Religion is not at fault, it's humanity that is at fault. I myself am experiencing these negative attributes at this time. I feel anger, hatred, sadness and shame for humanity, both against Theists and Atheists, for no sides are willing to extend a hand of compassion. I do not fault the beliefs of Theists or Atheists, I fault the human beings that populate them. edit: this has made me pretty depressed and unmotivated. Looks like I still have a lot to learn. A lot.
Dan...take a look at this video. I think it speaks to both of us. [video=youtube;2Oe6HUgrRlQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oe6HUgrRlQ[/video]
If there was a "like" button, I would spam it. This man speaks to my heart. And coming from a Buddhist, I think this guy also exemplifies the vision of what Buddhism (the way of life, not the religion) aims for. To tell you the truth, just for the past few days I have been feeling relatively depressed at the ugliness of humanity, I felt unmotivated due to the fact that I was thinking "there's no point in doing things, because humanity will never change". I was ashamed of being a human being, and that there's nothing I can personally do to change the ways of our race. I was saddened, and I needed something to tell me that humanity is not as bad as it is. It is people like the man in your video who is helping to re-instill my faith in humanity. Thanks.
No need to be depressed about humanity, as long as you do what is right for you and doing what you think will change humanity. If you happen to change one person's mind you've done humanity a favor.
^ I guess you may be right, but there's a saying: "You can't change other people, you can only change yourself". Having said that, I will admit that I have a lot of problems. I believe that the reason why I am alive, is because I have things to learn in life. At the moment, I think my priority would be to try and fix myself first, before changing other people's mind. Using your own statement: "If I happen to change myself, I've done humanity a favor". edit: and Alain the Botton did say something at the end that I think is relevant. And this does not only apply to Atheist, this advice can be applied by Theists and everyone as well. And this is also part of the key to cohabitation.
