It take a significant number of fossils to determine whether a supposed species is a mutation or actually existed as a species for a certain period of time. If someone find a 6-fingered human 1000 years later, from that ONE fossil record, can scientist claim that there exist a SEPERATE species of 6-fingered human beings? Or those missing a limb? Or those who had their appendix removed? How can one be sure it is a DISTINCT species and not just a variation of the same species? If you would like to discuss the science behind fossils, in fact there shouldn't be any fossil records on high mountains, flood or no flood because even IF there exist the great flood of Noah's Arc fame, "animals" would have been washed down to the bottom of the sea, and not remain atop mountains when they become fossils. Thus, fossil records atop mountains DOES NOT affirm the legendary flood. To be honest, if the flood and Christianity is true, we would find approximately equal amount of fossil records at any given spot in the world (since everything is flooded and things remain the same location as they are), which obviously isn't the case. In fact, it was explained scientifically why fossils are found in high mountains, because the landscape as we know it now is not the same as millions of years ago. Mountains were form an awful long time ago, yes, but before it is formed by tectonic plate movements, it would have been emerged below sea level. Lack of evidence does not necessary NEGATE a theory as long as there is no NEGATING evidence. That is why scientists around the world are still researching instead of sitting in their cozy lab hoping for heaven. Can't be more ridiculous to resort to circular reasoning: God exist because the Bible say so, what the Bible say must be true because it's God's words... -whistle And in fact, not ALL rocks' age is determined by its fossil content, there exist rocks WITHOUT any fossil, it doesn't stop the scientist from telling its age by other means. Haven't heard of the term, but I guess you are referring to the supposed single organism where EVERY SINGLE SPECIES evolved from at one point or another? Hypothetical of course, because even single cell organisms have their variations, thus when evolving, the distinct type/species single cell organisms transform into various forms. There are rodents which don't actually have "wings" but have the ability to glide, I would say that can be a plausible pre-cursor to "bats"... And in fact, most bats are herbivores, so they don't necessary NEED to fly to survive. It is all about the niche, evolution is based on pressure, when there isn't enough food to go around the entire population of a certain species, part of the population start to search for new niche to feed on. Not unlike the marketing jargon talk, I would say. Example: If you can't get enough advertising revenue from the Male population, explore the niche market of the female population. Thus preaching... -whistle Yet somehow being a Christian gives one the right to lecture on what's right and what's wrong... Sounds rhetoric if I ask what gives Christians the right to lecture if they are no more perfect than others, no? My experience is that Christians are the first to judge and master players of the peer-pressure. Add that to the doom-to-hell threat from God (supposedly anyways), you would wonder who's the one exerting pressure on others... Thus hypocripsy. It is one thing to want to maintain a decent conversation (devoid of sex, religion and politics) and quite another to PRETEND not to be what you are.
i truly belive this, if a person has to force themselves to follow God, the bible, then something is terribly wrong, a christian should do thses things with joy and ease.
Doh, even if you say it right without any insult, doesn't mean you are a perfect human being right? Where did I imply that? Why you keep repeating those words, 'humans are not perfect' anyway? I can see those same words coming from the mouth of a murderer or rapist -whistle Even if you are an adult, I doubt there's such person exist... A 'perfect Christian' that is. So, if God doesn't expect you to be perfect, then in the same way and according to your reasoning, I can say that "God doesn't expect ME to be perfect" thus, my belief in OTHER religion. So, why would God want to punish me by sending me to Hell? -whistle Okay, does that mean, Non-Christians are Perfect because they are not christians? -innocent
First of all, where did you studied evolution? Classes organized by christian organisations doesn't count as they're totally biased and can't accept that as this goes against the theory of their god created earth and humans. Yes, there are some flaws in the evolution theory but it doesn't mean we can throw that whole theory out of the window, it just needs to be revised. There are already a lot of 'transitional fossils' found and what about the Homo neanderthalensis who used to have existed next to the Homo sapiens sapiens? Don't tell me they didn't believe in god and god punished them by exterminating them in favour of the Homo sapiens sapiens? Perhaps there was once a collison with a huge asteroid causing huge floods? The clam shells on a mountains doesn't say anything; mountains grow when continental plates are moving in each others directions and shells that ended up there could be the result of years and years of earth erosion. Or a flood indeed but one caused by nature and not a certain god. How do you explain the legs of birds which still resembles the Therapod dinosaurs? Those feathered creatures are the best sign of this evolution from dinosaurs to mammals. Darwin lived in a period when he could have been lynched by the mass for suggesting the humans shared a common ancestor with the chimpanzees. Science was still very young and things have improved since then. Where did you read this? In the jesus loves you weekly? I believe it when science mags like The Lancet agrees with this. I might be wrong but this can called a double check?! If they estimate the age of the rock first with for example carbon-14 method and then check the fossil again to see how if there's a huge gap or not and make a more precise estimation? Like blindly believing an antique book written by anonymous writers is the more attractive option... I'm not sure what you're talking about here, if you mean Darwin's 'gradualism' >>>yes he is wrong there but as not everything slowly evoluate (but then Darwin himself was a very cautious man), but how about sudden mutation of genes? That's been proved at least. I've never heard of this theory? A bat belongs to the order of Chiroptera and only toddlers will believe the story of a rodent became bat. But suppose the theory you've heard exists in the world of the real scientists: mutation can happen when an animal have to adopt a new lifestyle due changing life environments. In a period when these ''rodents' don't have many enemies, they could have grown wings.
that reasoning isn't correct. i presume that when thanx4nothin stating the notion of "us" and "we", he/she was refering to the Christians that have received Jesus Christ as their Savior and Messiah. So, unless you admit that you are a Christian you do not fall under that category. Also, i want to add on the account of Expectation and Requirement. Before Jesus Christ, humans were required by God to be perfect. In which, they follow all of the Laws of God. And when they do fail, there are specific sacrifices and rituals that are needed to be perform to "cleanse" them of their sin(s). However, because Jesus Christ existed and did indeed die and defeated our sins; we are cleanse before God. Now, that is the miraculous thing about Christianity, when one truly believes and becomes a Christian, they will want to live up to the standard of the Law. Even though, we are no longer "required", but only "expected" to uphold the Law to best of our ability. The Holy Spirit that lives within the Christians show us our faults and sins; and therefore encourage us to uphold and demonstrated the righteousness of being holy. now, with your statement; it is defeating upon itself, imo. b/c if an individual is not a Christian - how can he/she be judged like a Christian? so, b/c an individual does not have Jesus Christ as their Savior and therefore they are not "protect" and "shelter" by the gift of salvation from God. Then they will be judged upon the "requirement" to be perfect. And since there are no earthly sacrifice or ritual can FULLY grant the gift of salvation; it is a lost cause. Let me give my two cents on what perfection is to a Christian. For a Christian, the only existence of Perfection is God. Even though, within human history there are individuals that were close to perfection; but based on the standard of Perfection, which is Holiness. No one can be perfect, since everyone at one time in their life has sinned at least once. So, b/c of that, Jesus Christ is needed for humanity, not only on the grounds to teaching moralistic and ethnical related topics and problems. but in an overall, cleansing of our sins; therefore granting us an eternal relationship with God. you see, when God looks at us, He will see Jesus Christ. not to be mistaken that God cannot see our own individuality or personality; but that He see holiness and perfection that was part of Jesus Christ, and now part of us. so in essence, we are perfect, not on the grounds of never commiting wrongs or sins, but the fact that Jesus Christ atones for our sins and wrongs; granting us the standard of Perfection. now, that last statement seems really prideful. however, only when one acts upon it, then one becomes filled with pride. if a Christian goes around, stating that "I'm better than you because I have Jesus Christ" then that would be an action of pridefulness. however, it is the opposite that is happening. b/c one would logically assume that if one is prideful to think that one is better than the other, he/she will not want to devulge or "spread" the good news of Christ. since, that would no longer give the Christian the edge of being proud in his religion. also pridefulness is against the principles of Christianity and most Christian does not act upon that notion. therefore, it would be logical to concluded that when a Christian is trying the spread and teach the news of Christ; they are not acting to be more superior than their audience, but more of a sibling telling other sibling the goodiness of what they learned and experienced.
This is one of the reasons why I don't like to follow the ways of christianity. I don't like how christians pretend to be my good brothers and sisters telling me what they learned and experienced in their religion. It seems so fake. I am sure it is some plan to deceive me into following christianity and then I'll be converted into a slave of god.
^ a slave of God? how is that so? i might be wrong but, isn't a slave someone is who is forced to associate and work for another against their own will? but in that sense, we are not slave but something else. the Bible speaks of us being co-heirs with Christ. so, i don't think anyone that is a Christian is willing to claim that they are "slave to God".
First of all, if you are a christian, then you are already a slave and brainwashed. Therefore, a christian will obviously deny being brainwashed and a slave. Secondly, don't christians HAVE to serve jesus and god? If they don't follow the bible and learn the teachings of god, then they are not considered christians.
that's my point. there is still a choice there. but a Christian choose to do what is right and follow God's Laws. he/she would WANT to do it; not b/c they HAVE to, but they really WANT to do it. this is the aspect of "regeneration" in Christianity. then one would agrue that the Christians only assume and imagine there is a choice when in reality there isn't. well, take into example, if a christian that was devoted to God during a part in his life, really truly believe in Jesus Christ and the gift of salvation, left and departed to another/non-religious faction. does he/she lose his orignial gift of salvation? no, he/she does not (unless he/she denounce his/her faith in Jesus Christ, curse the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; but in that case, i would question if he/she was a true Christian to begin with). therefore, since salvation cannot be lost, the Holy Spirit that once dwelt in that person's heart cannot be lost as well. So, in a sense, the individual will continual to do "good" work for that is part of him/her, and eventually the Holy Spirit will remind the individual to lean back on Christ after/during their ordeal. On the comment, "If they don't follow the bible and learn the teachings of god, then they are not considered christians." that is true to an extent. like my point before, following God's laws and teachings are a wanted apsect of Christianity. once an individual becomes a Christian they would want to do good works, and want to go to church, and want to read the Bible and other religious articles/documentation.
my brain shut off after reading that... you know how many imperfections there are during BCE? infinite. for all we know, the same number of imperfections can be found even DURING ACE... who says the arrival of Jesus changed much? she was asking about perfection of a NON-christian, not a christian..
So how about the non-christians -who may or may not have a religion/set of beliefs- who choose to do what is right, i.e. staying on the right side of the law, helps others out, do voluntary work, offer a listening ear to those who need it etcetc? They have made a choice too because they really WANT it. Without needing a god, bible or heaven. To me tha sounds more like a real choice.
first of all, i want to say congrats, dann. you are vip. i haven't notice your 3000 mark until now. -hat off- dann. well, that was the point of Jesus Christ. since, man (human in general) cannot overcome sin him/herself. then God needed to intervene and grant a solution. therefore the signifance of arrival, life, death, and resurrection Jesus Christ is meaningful and changed alot. First of all, if Jesus Christ didn't come, there would be Christianity, obviously. And secondly, majority of us would be going to hell. when i say majority i mean probably 99.5% of us are going to hell. i address this in the "Understanding Christianity a bit more ..." thread. http://www.dramasian.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17390 so, without Jesus Christ, mankind would be judged upon their actions. and like you stated dann, we have alot of imperfection ... since the beginning even till now. oh. she was refer to thanx4nothin's post which was about the perfection of christians. unless i misread. -noclue
A christian does not have a choice but to follow god's laws. The instant a christian doesn't follow god's laws, then he or she is a christian no more. To be or not to be, that is the question. Once you decide to be a true christian, then it is already too late to turn back. You will want to go to church, want to read the bible and other religious articles/documentations. You are not only a slave, but a mindless slave. You will follow whatever you think god tells you to act and do. Like you stated, even if christians try to part away from christianity, "the individual will continual to do "good" work for that is part of him/her, and eventually the Holy Spirit will remind the individual to lean back on Christ after/during their ordeal." There still isn't a choice (whether to be a christian or not) since the conclusion is that the individual will have lean back on christ in order to reach the christian goal.
Lol, you never fail to amaze me with your reasoning. I wonder who or whatever came up with that 'law'? Is it in the Bible? Hmm, let me ask you something. If that individual isn't a Christian, why is he being judged by the Christian God then? -whistle What makes the Christian God so powerful to discriminate the Christians and the Non-Christians and their ways of judgment as well?! According to your logic, the non-Christians are not judged like a Christian, having Jesus as their Savior and what not, but since the non-Christians don't even believe in the existence of Him, then what does it make Him able to judge us? I recall you or MG have posted the so-called verses in the Bible before regarding sending the non-Christians, and NONE of the verses have specifically mentioned that the non-believers will be sent to Hell. It is just a matter of interpretation. I have refuted each and every one of the verses clearly, so has Dann. And yet, some narrow-minded people like you, for example, decide to claim themselves superior (having that so-called gift from God) and condemn the rest of us to Hell. Oh well, *shrug* not my problem at all. It's a matter of your own character and way of thinking anyway. If you decide to live your way as an arrogant, prideful and ignorant person, then you just have to answer to the 'true' God when the time comes. My saying of the 'true' God doesn't mean your God doesn't exist. I am just having my own interpretation of God, which doesn't include your wrathful, vengeful, selfish and irrational version. I am doubtful as to even JESUS CHRIST would have led a 'sinless' life, like what you said, EVERYONE at one time in their lives have sinned at least once. IMO, so did Jesus. He, to the rest of us (non-Christians) was just like anyone else. He needed to eat, shit and sleep. Maybe he did perform some miracles, but that doesn't mean that he led a ZERO SIN life, like how you claimed everyone else. And if you say, "Oh no, Jesus is the only one who did not commit any sins in his life" then I say to you, "How can you prove that?" For the same way you can claim that Jesus led a sinless life, I can say, so did Buddha. So did Muhammad. It's my word against yours. -whistle Ahem, do you have to say the exact same words (words in BOLD) to mean the same thing? I have given you a perfect example of an extremist Christian. Let's say I were to show you a link on some website, with a picture of a white man/woman. And he/she claimed that "I saw Jesus Christ being rebornt as a pig, coz he didn't believe in Buddhism!!!" you extremists would be the first to yell, "BLASPHEMY!!!" and say that the website is full of LIES LIES LIES. Now, your brother here, Master_G has posted a website, and asked ME, a Buddhist, to read it, when I recalled myself posting my 'OPINION' in his thread "What would you do if you died and went to Eternal Hell?". I said I was a Buddhist and explained my belief, and I said I did not believe in Hell. That's all. Instead of respecting my beliefs and leave it at that, MG asked me to read up on this link. Now that website contained a suspicious-looking picture of a man (which I think had no relation at all to the 'writer' of that story) speaking of how he saw Buddha in Hell because he didn't believe in Jesus. Now, why didn't you people use the same kind of logic and rationality you are so willing to apply in your own faith?! To do what MG had done, it's like the non-Asian example. Asking me, "Are you a Buddhist, and you don't want to be???" I find that behavior terribly distasteful and disrespectful, not only to any Buddhist but also if he were to have done it to any non-Christian. Why can't he leave me alone, when I said I don't believe in Hell or Heaven?! Why can't he respect my belief in reincarnation? No, instead, he tried to shove it down my throat. Now, the above is a perfect example of a PRIDEFUL Christian. I may say that he is so blinded by his own faith that he failed to show respect to the rest of the human beings in this world (considering that not even half the world are Christians) and believe that HIS religion is superior over the rest. You keep saying "No, we are not prideful. We are just trying to help". Perhaps, if I grant you the benefit of doubt, you do have good intention. But like I said, religion is something that can't be PROVEN. So until you have the valid proof, stop shoving your beliefs down others' throats like you meant good. Free-will is free-will, and you should respect that others have their own beliefs, and if they don't wish to convert or not interested to find out about YOUR religion, then have the common sense NOT to threaten them with words like, I find the above an extreme act of a disrespectful and ignorant fool who deserves no respect from me, when he said that to my face. If you want people to respect and learn and maybe even come to love your religion, then do so in a respectful manner, be TOLERANT of others (even if your bible doesn't teach you that) because TOLERANCE is the key word to letting you survive in this world. If you keep up that attitude of yours, like I said, you'll find it extremely hard to interact with others, unless they are the exact same kind of people like you. There are some of us here who do NOT wish to serve God the way you do, so for God's sake, (no pun intended) let us be!!! You have no proof that your religion is even the RIGHT way, let alone the ONLY way. So, who knows, I am sure some of the people in OTHER religions (Islam for example) believe that they are serving God in their own ways. So why keep trying to make people follow YOUR way? You don't even have proof it's the RIGHT way! I understand if you are trying to teach a kid, that "1 + 1 =2". That is proven to be true, of course. It's a Math formulae, which CANNOT be argued. But here, you are trying to ask the rest of us, people, to change OUR beliefs and follow yours. Have you no thought that WE have the equal amount of FAITH in OUR beliefs?! Just like you do in yours? If you belief Jesus is the salvation 100%, I believe that we SHALL be reincarnated. But do you see ME going around trying to tell people to be good, and follow the ways of Buddhism so they would attain Nirvana?! No. I don't. I only explain MY beliefs, and leave it at that. I only explain further, when people ASK me. I do NOT go around trying to SCARE people saying that, "You know, you'll be reincarnated a 100 times more because you are so ignorant and believing in the false way." Please put yourself in others' shoes. If you can achieve that and see that, just like YOU, WE have our own beliefs and equal amount of faith in them, then you can see the reason why we are so pissed with people behaving like you do, and you can see why we despise the act of preaching and trying to convert, irregardless of your 'intentions'. I despise people who try to convert others no matter how good their intentions are, BECAUSE, to try to change another's path in life is a very bad thing for me indeed. EXTREMELY BAD karma added to that person trying to convert, if I may say so. -nono Now I do have good intention of course. It worries me, because you are only adding bad karma to yourself (similar to your reasoning of trying to save others from going to Hell) so, I plead you and your other good friend to open your eyes and stop behaving like you are the only ones who booked the front row tickets on Heaven! If you open your eyes and your heart, and change your narrow ways of thinking, you'll do better as a person even in life, not just in your faith. Who knows, I might see you in Heaven one day. Or, worse comes to worst, in the astral lane, on the queue to the Hall of Memories. But of course, we won't be able to meet if once we're dead and buried under the ground, we become food for the maggots. And you just lost me there. So you are saying that one can believe in Jesus Christ THEN convert out and still be deemed to be saved?! Wow, that's a new information to me! I don't understand, what you mean by " no, he/she does not (unless he/she denounce his/her faith in Jesus Christ, curse the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; " because if a person leaves and departs to another faction, won't that mean the same thing?! (Denouncing faith in Jesus Christ). So to be safe, I just might convert to Christianity, and serve God for a few years, believe in Jesus Christ and accept my gift of salvation, then I convert out of it LATER. So I would have secured my ticket in Heaven... !
rite. my point was if you wish to continue that path of just doing "good" works and no belief in God, then on the day of judgement you will be judged just that. and then punished for the sin that was commited by you; unless of course, you willing to say that you have live a life so perfect and sinless that it can grant you entrance into heaven? i don't personally know you, i would think you are not that arrogant and stupid to make such a claim. so, instead of being judged by our own action, Jesus Christ is needed to intervene for us and grant us salvation and entrance to heaven.
re so your say everybodys that a Christian is brainwashed? i guess i could jump up and say the same thing about what you believe.lol or i just shit all over everything you believe like other ppl do on these boards do but i don't think like that so i won't,but i must say i don't like what you said i find it disrespectful to me as well-censored if you believe that that fine but you might want to think that they aren't the only Christians on these boards! and there not what every Christian is like so please show some -annrespect
firstly, thank you. now, what i said was, based on historical facts, it would seem that the imperfections between BCE and ACE are very much unchanged, if not worsen. let me give you some example. BCE, Battle of Gaule, where Vercingetorix defended himself versus the Roman Empire. murders, deaths, and killing everywhere.. or even the Mongolian campaigns, with Genghis Khan's ruling... blood everywhere. now ACE, reign of Napoleon de Bonaparte. same thing occured if i may add. or even, the Holocaust. im only talking about one of the many imperfections man had committed. doesnt seem like the arrival of Jesus changed much did it? seems to me in worsened.. Holocaust? 6 million deaths, not counting the numbers of soldiers killed in battle during WW2... tell me.. hasnt changed much has it? and on the side... you said 99.5% are going to hell... where did that number come from?
In a way, christians who only believe in everything the bible states and god is brainwashed. But if you don't like the term, I can use a thesaurus to find other terms more appealing: altered, converted, influenced, proselytized, etc.
i really want to answer BabyRain & 無得頂 remarks and concern of Christianity, but unforunately i don't have the time now. however, i will answer dann's post -- since it is shorter. ^^ np. well, that only proves the sinfulness of man and that is cannot be resolved by works alone. you have proven that throughout history, man (not to be sexist, but i mean humans in general) has sin among and against one other. so, the teaching that one can improve one's own surroundings and nature is not exactly correct. now, the biggest cause i heard was that Hilter was Christian, so Christianity endorse the actions of Hilter. pfff, come'on that is ridiculous. where in the teachings of Christ and his apostles, or even the OT speaks of the mass-killing of the Jewish population? Hilter was obviously an individual that was corrupted by power and prestige and used the religion of Chrisitianity to reason his unorthodox and inappropiate causes. no where. i was just giving an idea of i think the whole population would be going if Jesus Christ didn't come and did what he did. and plus, i would be going to hell with the others as well.
I'm glad I don't know you personally. First of all, who says I want to live in a heaven? Maybe I do believe in reincarnation after all and prefer that over living a boring live in what you call a heaven where everything is perfect. (How can you know good when there's no bad?) If I get reincarnated at least I can try to help myself and others do do better in the new life, like a new chance to improve yourself instead of sitting on your lazy arrogant ass, chatting with other holy christian lives and then? Forever and eternally doing what? Being happy? How? Talking about how those non-christians burn in hell?
