these so called HOT chicks arguing against a certain group of people's realities / point of views not realising there is a higher point of views http://www.iawakeblog.com/2010/08/spiral-dynamics-introduction.html https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...=F91hUsWuPMXNkwWP1IGgCw&ved=0CEcQsAQ#imgdii=_ [video=youtube;G6mMb83Mp7U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6mMb83Mp7U[/video]
You just don't get it.....the title of their video is Christian Logics, so yes it is towards a certain group. And you said it right. This group's reality is all jacked up. And if you disagree you should really re-examine your believes and moral. also what is the higher point of view on this. Please enlighten us with YOUR OWN WORDS! Try not to cut and paste from another source or post another laughable video. Lets have a real discussion.
The logics of Christians are flawed, but the logic of the chicks are also flawed. They are opinions. and it's ok, as that youtube and articles above mentions, it is their role, contributions and functions in the society One of their logic, they argue the Concept of God that is anthropomorphic, which means human's creation / concept, which is a God concept that is given human's attributes, such as can be loving and also destroyer, which is false concept in the first place. And they argue on the false concept / opinions forever, the Religions defending it, the Chicks rejecting it but their alternative is nothing / no God / science or "i don't know"? If "i don't know" and 'i don't give a shit' and 'i don't bother to know God', then why argue? Because their ego wants to feels superior? to feel smarter? correct? to destroy? to ridicule? got nothing better to do or talk about? to make enemy? to gain fans to support their opinions? to blame? to defend and protect their beliefs? to change other people's beliefs? to save the world and make a better place? If they give a shit and want to know, then better find out more, not stopping until knowing the highest Truth, or rather unbecoming false, and what is left is Truth. In the highest truth, life has no meaning, until humans appear on the planet to give meanings to things. There is no concept of good or evil, until human developed 'intellect' maybe that's the real meaning of adam and eve eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge mythology those early human has no knowledge of duality, they don't know they are naked, just like common animals. Animals don't have ego, They don't regret about past and worry the future, they can feel pain but they don't suffer, they don't argue and seek enemies, they don't seek revenge, they don't complain, they live and enjoy in the present in any environment conditions, they don't know they will die, they kill / eat only when hungry, they aren't capable doing '7 deadly sins', and they live in a 'paradise' mode then they develop 'logic' / 'knowledge' / ego and then the 'unparadise' mode starts to show up The intellect logic mistake is assuming the images of realities for the realities itself. And the intellect logic is incapable to know the highest Truth. So called Logic only capable dealing with linear, dealing with things that can experience with human's sensory apparatus and measured, but highest Truth is in non-linear realm. There are heaps of more available informations out there about this, people's opinion / words are only repetition of what we read / hear / experience. The reason I paste those links, they are some of the informations that are well written and more details, and I don't have the time / desire or words skills to repeat what they say. I can only point at them if people are interested to know there are alternative higher point of views. If you think you are so full of the right knowledge already, of course you don't even bother to read it. "The cup must be empty before you can pour water into it" ? If anyone want to have a religion, there is no religion higher than Truth. and If anyone don't want to have a religion, just enjoy your current life and don't bother other so called religions, let Richard Dawkins and his fans' Roles and Functions do it, as if it is going to change other people's core beliefs, maybe some would, but to wake up to another flawed God logic beliefs. The question should be whether one want's to play the same role / function forever or move to higher role / function.
If you know the Christian's logics are flawed, there's still hope for you. The video points out these flaws and has nothing to do with these chick's logic. They are trying to give you another point of view from a non religious perspective and how silly the xtian logics are. Sorry, I have to disagree with you again. Most non believers such as myself and these chicks probably know more about your holy book than most xtians. When we say we don't know, we try to find the answers and would never say we don't give a shit. And don't say we don't bother to know god. I've been a christ follower for 20+ years. I read the bible front to back, back to front countless times. I had consoling with pastors and priest to try and find god. We don't just wake up one day and turn atheist over night. It's a long process and lots of pain and soul searching. It has nothing to do with our ego, we don't feel more superior, or smarter. But we do constantly learn and research the facts and look for solid evidence to support why we don't believe. We have nothing against religion. As long as the believers keep it to themselves and not force your believes into society by changing laws to fit into your fantasies. And yes we do this because we do want to make the world a better place! Ah...we finally agree on something...that Adam and Eve story is a mythology. Wrong again, you need to watch more Animal Kingdom or the Discovery channel like Planet Earth. Have you ever seen the ego of a primate or a lion? Further more, don't you think if there was a god and he created us and gave us intellect, he would want us to use that intellect to better ourselves so we don't have to live like animals? And you know there is a higher truth or a non linear realm exist because of what evidence??? Why do you assume non believers don't read or do research? You think our non believes just comes from no where? We read and learn everyday. We observe what's going on around us and in the world. We don't claim to have all the knowledge and we are constantly looking for answers, as with science and technology advancement progress human kind. Sounds like you would rather our world stay in the dark ages where science is consider black magic and people get burn on the stake for healing with herbs because they are called witches. Those are the days when religion was easily established to control people. Unfortunately, those believes still exist today. Obviously, you didn't watch the debate from my post "Has science buried god?" You keep speaking of this higher role and function.....can you give us an example? How do people reading this post know what you are talking about? And how do we know when we reached this role/function? Do we have to die to find out? P.S: Thank you for finally posting in your own words, it makes this conversation much more meaningful. And I don't mean any disrespect if I offended you or your religion. Anyone who is reading these post are also either curious or trying to find the truth. We may not agree with each other. That's why it's good that we share our thoughts and let others decide their own path.
Before i answer to those, answer this first 'Is there a colour in the world?' ie. is there red / green / etc colour when you 'see' those colours in a 'red' tomato, green 'leaves' ?
Scientifically, there is no color. But our brain can interpret different spectrum of light. That's why we have people who are color blind. And I know where you are going with this. But please go on.......
yes, we are talking science first So if there is no colour out there do you also agree there is no sound, smell, taste , or even the sense of touch out there? so where do Human (and i emphasised on Human) experience the colour 'red and green etc' is? how about bigger things like a tree is there a tree out there in the world? according to latest science?
No I don't necessarily agree. How we distinguish color, sound, taste and touch can all be explained. Are you taking me back to the tree of life?
no, i am not taking to the tree of life, hehe, first of all, i am not a christian , neither any other specific religion but i have read some knowledge of their teachings / books and experiences with them too. I have been in atheist stage too, arguing with christians about the bible validity etc but now, i am still talking about science, the only thing i can get through you is science that you are so into. The 'evidence' that you so many time requested. So here it is , science 301 (instead of 101), but you don't want any links / quotes / youtubes of other people's details explantions of science 301, and it is going to be hard and long how about this analogy when you watch a RED ball bouncing around on black background, on your pixeled monitor tv / computer screen, do that image of red ball really moving from left to right, up and down, etc? or something else? what's the real reality of that red ball moving around the tv screen? of course scientifically speaking too and required scientific answer you can replace the RED ball with a Mouse cursor that you move around the computer monitor screen, do that mouse cursor really move or what? what's really happening there? what actually move? how about more complex many moving images, like a continuous movies on the same computer monitor screen. and how about the non-moving picture ? what do they have in common? scientifically speaking? no need complex answer, from the point of view of the pixeled monitor technology itself i am trying to get a point here of the reality (might continue next time, since i got appointment soon)
btw, that's not the correct answer, that's answer from some 'non-scientist' person from google search if you want a scientist nobel prize winner, try google "John Eccles (neurophysiologist)" point of views whether there is colors, smells, sounds, taste, etc in the world
So let's get to the point. What are you trying to prove here? What does all this have to do with god(s) and religion? I get the 3 world thing with John Eccles. I get the 7 level of consciousness that you pointed out. To me that's all just ones perspective on life. Each and everyone of us has a different point of view in life depending on what we've experience through our life time. If feels like we are off topic here. You said you were atheist at one point. What are you now?
it proofs that 1. the mantra is 'further', there is always further things to learn / discover about the world, god and ourselves 2. there is a quote, ''Follow those who are seeking the truth, but run away from those who have found it" as an atheist many years ago, the negative part were: i was spiritually ignorant, know-it-all sob, and think i am 100 percent in control of my life (the ego said that). i think people who are seeking God can be categorized into 4 types (according to Bhagavad Gita) a. people who are suffering and want to be relieved from their suffering, b. people who wants reward here on earth or the afterlife, c. people who wants to experience mystical experiences d. people who just want to know God (which is rare). modern people, who are currently living their life with "good life" (good career, family, relationship, etc) with their own human efforts don't have the motivation to know or seek God. And it's ok, maybe don't have to know God, their life meant to do something else, thus their current level of consciousness. at our current era, the fastest / short cut / the only way to know God closer is group a. And you better touch wood a hundred times that it doesn't happen to you.
and the answer for the objects moving in TV monitor i just copy and paste, better wordings "When you see a TV character walking from left to right on the screen, your brain registers a false impression. Nothing on that screen, not a single electron, has actually moved from left to right. With a magnifying glass you would see that the only activity taking place is the flickering of phosphors on the surface of the cathode-ray tube. If phosphor A is to the left of phosphor B, its flicker can be timed so that just as it goes off, phosphor B lights up. This trick makes it look as if something has moved from left to right, just as twinkling Christmas lights seem to circle around the tree." "If we go back to the television, the answer is obvious. The characters walking across the screen are just phantoms, but they are organized phantoms. Their image is fixed on film or videotape, their motions are planned and worked out. In other words, there is intelligence behind the illusion. This presiding intelligence keeps the random flickers of photons from being truly random; it creates forms from formless electrical charges. For it turns out that not just the motion of a TV image is illusion, so is its color and shape. So is its voice, if the character happens to speak. No matter what quality you look for, it can be broken down to pulses of energy, and these pulsations have meaning only because a hidden director has created it." and what's that got to do with human or reality? "Now let's apply the same trick to ourselves. When I get out of my chair and walk across the room, my body seems to be moving, but in fact nothing of the sort is happening at the quantum level. Instead, a series of virtual particles is flickering in and out to create the illusion of motion. This is such an important point that I want to give several more examples. Go to the beach where ocean waves are crashing on the shore. If you wade out and put a cork on the water, your senses tell you that it will be carried along by the waves--but it isn't. The cork stays in place, bobbing up and down as the waves pass along. The water is also just moving up and down. It is the same water that hits the shore, not new water carried from miles away. The wave motion takes place only at the energy level, creating the illusion that the water is getting nearer to the shore. Now the examples get more mysterious: When two magnets are drawn to each other, what pulls them together is the magnetic field. But the field itself doesn't move. All over the world compass needles are wiggling, but the earth's magnetic poles aren't. How does a nonmoving field make a needle or two heavy pieces of iron move? Again it is an illusion--at the quantum level, virtual photons, acting as carriers of the magnetic force, flicker in and out, and because they do this in sequence, the appearance of motion is created." "At the quantum level nothing of the material world is left intact. It is strange enough to hold up your hand and realize that it is actually, at a deeper level, invisible vibrations taking place in a void. Even at the atomic level all objects are revealed as 99.9999 percent empty space. On its own scale, the distance between a whirling electron and the nucleus it revolves around is wider than the distance between the earth and the sun. But you could never capture that electron anyway, since it too breaks down into energy vibrations that wink in and out of existence millions of times per second. Therefore the whole universe is a quantum mirage, winking in and out of existence millions of times per second. At the quantum level the whole cosmos is like a blinking light. There are no stars or galaxies, only vibrating energy fields that our senses are too dull and slow to pick up given the incredible speed at which light and electricity move. In the animal kingdom some nervous systems are much faster than ours and others much slower. A snail's neurons pick up signals from the outside world so slowly, for example, that events any faster than three seconds would not be perceived. In other words, if a snail was looking at an apple, and I quickly reached in and snatched it away, the snail would not be able to detect my hand. It would "see" the apple disappear before its very eyes. In the same way, quantum flashes are millions of times too rapid for us to register, so our brains play a trick on us by "seeing" solid objects that are continuous in time and space, the same way that a movie seems continuous. A movie consists of twenty-four still pictures flashing by per second, with twenty-four gaps of blackness as each frame is taken away and a new one put in its place. But since our brains cannot perceive forty-eight stop-motion events in one second, the illusion of the movie is created." "Let's assume that we can accept the fact that you and I are not moving, either. To a quantum physicist, our bodies are just objects, like any other. A ball thrown across the room isn't moving, only winking in and out of existence at an incredibly fast speed at different locations, and we are no different. But here the mystery deepens. When the ball disappears for a nanosecond, only to reappear just the tiniest bit to the left or right, why didn't it disintegrate? After all, it was completely absent for a while, and there is no reason why its old shape and size and color shouldn't simply dissolve. Quantum physics can even calculate the odds that it won't reappear, that instead of a ball flying across the room, a bowl of pink Jell-O will suddenly appear. What keeps things together?" yup, so what keeps things together? my own word = God don't create the universe, God become the universe all the time, blinking in and out all the time, if you want to use the word 'create', it create all the time creation and evolution is one of the same thing if you want to use scientific terms, that 'God' is the similar to LCD tv, the FIELD of infinite potentiality, all images are created from there. Get to know that Field
Copy and pasted "In the words of neurologist Sir John Eccles: “I want you to realize that there exists no colour in the natural world, and no sound – nothing of this kind; no textures, no patterns, no beauty, no scent.” Sounds, colors, patterns, etc., appear to have an independent reality, yet are, in fact, constructed by the mind. All our experience of the natural world is our mind’s interpretation of the stimulation it receives. There is no sound too When the tree falls it produces a series of pressure waves in the surrounding air. The ear drum converts these waves into a mechanical signal which is transmitted by 3 small bones to the fluid filled cochlea – the spiral bony canal of the inner ear. Hair cells of the cochlea are the actual receptors. Each is tuned to a particular frequency of the fluid waves. Hair cell vibrations are converted to electrical impulses, and transmitted along the auditory nerve to the auditory cortex where intensity and frequency of the vibrations are mapped. Neither pressure waves, physical movements of body parts [bones, hair], nor electrical signals are sound. What we call sound exists only in the mind of the beholder." my own word = when people talk, the air in the vocal cords produces vibration, the wind pipe organ produces vibration in the atmosphere, but not making any noise and the ear has fine hairs, and they start to move and vibrate too and start to create electrical currents to your brain, and the electrical currents makes no sound. Everything in the universe is just vibration. Period. So where is the sound?
Everything you wrote can be pretty much summed up by the movie Matrix. The scientific examples you provided does not proof there is a deity. From your examples, if a god do exist, it's probably an illusion, it's created by our own brain and imagination. However, I do find it interesting that you went from atheist to a theist. It doesn't happen often, Just like Kirk Cameron. But if believing in a deity makes you feel better and make you a better person than by all means, more power to you. Some people need a higher authority to watch over them in order for them to be good. I'm good because it's the right thing to do, not because an invisible deity is watching. Not because I'm looking for a reward in the afterlife, not because I'm afraid of hell.
Late entry: I'd watch this video again. Only I'd turn the volume off. That left one is totally bangable :naughty: In all seriousness, there is one question that really bugs me in this whole Christian vs Atheist debate: What are you really arguing for? More specifically, what do you gain from proving your belief over others? Because to be completely honest, regardless of what we believe in, if we continue to poke, stab, jab at each other, and hypothetically speaking, if we end up being correct, what do we gain? An ego boost? The right to brag that all [believers/non-believers] are wrong and you are right? Christians, so you believe in God. That's great. Keep believing in God. Who gives a fuck what people think about your beliefs. Just don't push your beliefs on others, because all that's going to do is make you look like a douche. Atheists, so you don't believe in God. That's also great. Who gives a fuck if people believe in what you may think is a fairy tale. There's no need to poke at their lack of understanding of YOUR point of view. The biggest problem in this entire fiasco isn't whether or not God really exists. God really has nothing to do with this. The biggest problem is that humans have the biggest urge to be right, to impose their righteousness onto others. At the root of it all, it's purely an opportunity for us to boost our ego, and have the feeling of "being right". In the end: the biggest problem is us. All of us have flaws that needs to be mitigated. These flaws are what fuels conflicts such as Christians vs Atheists Now here's another perspective on this "God" debate that will yield less conflict. If you believe in God, how about you take a step back, and ask why non-believers why they don't believe in God? Learn new information that allows you to make new decisions regarding your belief. For example, the concept of evolution goes against your beliefs. Instead of denying it, how about you try and understand why that concept exists, and judge for yourself if this new information/knowledge make sense, and change your belief if it makes sense. Be a better person by being open minded to new information, and transform yourself. If you don't believe in God, how about you continue not believing in God, but take a step to analyze the good things that you can learn from religion (any and all type of religion). If there's a concept in religion that turns out to increase your compassion, learn it. If there's a concept that promotes racism, homophobia, sexism, reject it. But select the concepts that you believe helps you to transform to become a better person. I bet statistically 95% of the human race either don't understand what I just said, don't care, or reject it. Which is fine. They are entitled to their beliefs.
LOL...totally agree with the bangable and your other comments. What I'm fighting for as an atheist is not to convert anyone. But for separation of church and state. Like I said in many of my posts, I don't give a crap if you believe genie in a bottle is real. But don't push your believes into our government trying to change laws so everyone has to comply with your believes. It's not fair, not only to atheist but not fair to those who don't believe in the same god as you. Debate is good, we can all see from both sides. It has to be discussed and voiced out for change. If we stay silent, nothing will change and these people will continue to harm society and slow down our ability to learn and advance. Look at the middle east, they were once the smartest people on earth and was one of the most advanced in science in their time. They allow religion to take over and look what they are like now.........
